Making Waves

Faith and Service as a Conscientious Objector

Interview for the Olelo Community Media show, Making Waves, hosted by Darlene Rodrigues in March, 2010.

• Part 1 Transcript

  Hi I'm Darlene Rodriguez your host for making waves this episode is called faith and service of a conscientious objector I have a very special guest logan mail lottery who has been on our show before speaking about veterans issues i'm going to before we start and welcome Logan I want to read his bio for you and show some pictures by JB Moffett on a recent trip that Logan took to Iraq

  Logan military spent over six years in the US Army at Fort Bragg North Carolina and Schofield Barracks Hawaii as an artillery forward observer after a 14 month combat deployment in support of our Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2004 he applied to return to Iraq unarmed as a non-combat and conscientious objector his request was passed over and he was honorably discharged in November of 2006 in 2008 Logan worked with other service members and veterans to form Centurion skilled in order to protect and defend prospective current and former service members while bearing true faith and allegiance to God on March 21st he will testify at the truth commission on conscious in war at the Riverside Church in New York City Logan is also a member of IV aww he is attending hpu and will receive his bachelor's degree in human services and I also mentioned that Logan just came back in January of this year from a trip to Iraq and these are the pictures from that trip so welcome Logan thanks for coming and agreeing to come and talk to us today so as I mentioned you've you went on a trip to Iraq and you went to a place called Ruth Bach and tell me a little bit about Britta why did you go over the circumstances and who did you go with sure Ruta is a tiny town in Al Anbar province in Iraq way off west in fact it's the first thing that even represents a city if you're coming in from Jordan to the west the we were there about three days we spent more time in Jordan than we were in Iraq and I was actually in Vice by my friend Shane Claybourne who had been there in 2003 Shane and another another about nine or ten other people in 2003 were there with the Iraq peace team which was a collaboration between Christian peacemaker teams and voices in the wilderness with Cathy Kelly and they were there to just kind of witness against the u.s. bombing campaign and to pervade provide comfort to those the victims of the American bombing they were evicted by Saddam's interior ministry and on their way out something along the way on the road popped a tire something they flipped and the rear vehicle in the rear vehicle three people sustained injuries including Shane and in the middle of war-torn Iraq we just started bombing I think was on like the ninth day they they were picked up by a group of Iraqis and taken to roopa to the hospital they are the only Hospital and when they got there they found that the the Children's Ward net had actually been hit by a bomb and two people had died and my friend Shane was a little nervous that they wouldn't provide a tour there was there would be some animosity but sure enough the doctors said Christian Muslim Jew we help everybody here and as they were getting ready to leave two of them actually had to have stitches to to stop the bleeding and and it was pretty well agreed that at least two of them probably have died without medical assistance and when they went to leave one of the members offered them all the cash they had because they you know we're leaving early and the doctor said no we we won't take your money we just asked each other world about Rupa and so that was the the origin of the gospel of Rupa they shamed another friend of mine Jonathan Wilson heart girl went back and wrote many books I think they each have at least four or five books to their name now I think and in each one that I've read they mentioned in some way Rupa and the they just felt compelled to have a reunion and somebody was interested in writing a book about the gospel of route by the Christians and Muslims Christians Mazel and the Good Samaritan story in Iraq about you know the event 1003 and unfortunately after they left the Navy moved into Rupa and there was a an incident where there was a mock execution and so Rupa very early got a very bad taste in her mouth for the military and the person writing the story didn't want to go didn't want to tell it without some kind of military perspective and Shane and I had been in touch for a long time and he thought that I would be a good candidate to provide some military perspective yeah I was deployed from January 4 to February of 5 and when we got there we were the first civilians they had seen since Shane and the group was there in O 3 so we got to the front gate and there all these Iraqi policemen who didn't know what to do with us and so they provided us escort into the hospital which we were really trying to maintain a low profile because of the danger of kidnapping and everything but yeah they they hosted us for three days and it was just the epitome of hospitality I'd never seen anything like it before so why was it important that they what did they choose now for a reunion and originally they were going to go last year I think in May but The Fixer the the the organizer the Iraqi organizer based on what people are saying in route but they felt that it wasn't safe yet and so they postponed it and in the meantime I was invited to participate as well and so we went instead in January of this year last last month what I know they asked you to come and bring a military perspective but what were you hoping to get out of this trip I didn't know what to expect I was just really grateful to be a part of it for some time I'd felt kind of drawn to return to Iraq and this isn't totally uncommon with combat veterans I know Vietnam a lot of Viet Nam's weren't back Vietnam veterans went back and I did I can't really put my finger on on why or or anything so I just kind of went on faith and

  I knew that my history would be a liability you know if someone who didn't have the greatest intentions notice that a former soldier is there a we could I or we could would be in danger of being kidnapped but also because of the the emotions that run so deeply with with any occupation I was well aware that people would be very hesitant to really fully be there in that that kind of circumstance and I I'm speaking probably both for Americans and Iraqis but about a day before we went in I was told that there was not a good idea to share my history we're not to not to be open about you know why I was there and everything so I ended up kind of being a fly on the wall which is probably for the best because enabled me to really listen to the you know very real human perspectives and what was going on and the reverberations are something that I was very personally and directly complicit in so there's a as an experience so what would you say would be the the conditions of people living in Ruffa right now and in terms of the occupation and right hopefully eventual pull out of of US forces what is the day-to-day life like for them for the most part roopam might be an exceptional story I don't know for sure we didn't hear any gunshots we didn't hear any explosions while we were there towns people had said that they're one of the safer cities because their isolation because they're non-sectarian they just had a better sentiment I guess for whatever reason but when when I went one of the things I was listening for because I've been I've been trying to inform myself politically and a lot of the people that I've been reading and following mostly religious circles have said well it was unjust to occupy but now that were there we've incurred moral obligation on ourselves to rebuild and it makes sense when I got there one of the recurring themes was that every single individual civilian Iraqi civilian that I spoke with said immediate withdrawal and that was it wasn't easy for me to swallow because of a lot of different things I didn't know what to do with it I mean I I myself fear like okay what happens in that vacuum etc but regardless that's what everybody was saying the the second piece of it was that they mentioned and I kind of had a hint of this when I was kind of going through my seal process in 2006 they said everybody that we have put in power and I worked with the governor of Najaf when I was there in August of o4 and he came from Detroit I mean he didn't even have an accent that I remember and these people who are sheiks who are you know they don't have the money to leave the country when you go and gets rough and they said the people were empowered now their bodies might be in Iraq but their minds and hearts and wallets are in America and we no matter how hard we try we can't totally put our trust in that and so I did some reading before I went out and one book I read was william Pope's understanding Iraq he's a Harvard professor I think and he said one of the major problems is not just that we dissolved the army one of the most legitimate structured you know armies in the Middle East but also that we did we did everything from the top down and if you look at our own story you know we did stuff from the bottom up you know Boston Tea Party and stuff like that so that's something that worries me but it was really good to hear that from the mouths of the people who really stand to gain and lose the most in with our failure or with our success what you think is if you really say like the most important things that you would hope people would get from hearing about this gospel of Ripa and the story of what happened there of being helped by people under the circumstances of war quote you know the enemy in some way well one thing that really surprised I was refreshing to hear and this was kind of a prospective challenge to me when we got there that the whole idea of the trip there are from certain Spector's I'm certainly just speaking my own understanding of why everybody went but one of the things was that this is such an incredible event they get hurt they're Americans you know their government is bombing them and yet they give them free medical care right I don't that itself is just incredible and we taught everybody we talked to again said that's normal we just do that and so it was kind of ironic I tried to chuckle outside of everybody's earshot but I mean this is normal Arab hospitality and it reminds me I mean just to kind of drive it home for myself when I was in Iraq in Samarra Operation Baton Rouge in October of 2004 you know very real kind of combat situation everything I thought it would be from the movies and everything a good end bad we get to the hospital in Samarra and there wasn't any gunfire anything but we vacated it in order to allow the Iraqi army with a Special Forces to go in and practice taking something by force and so we had to find someone saying we relatively politely knocked on someone's courtyard door in Samarra right across the street from the hospital and said we need to use your house for a couple hours and this very small family I think it was you know the parents and maybe three kids was yeah it was pretty small family if I remember right and so in the face of this you know operation you know with gunfire Bradley tanks and everything what do they do but bring us tea I mean I can't even put them like and framework that that I could understand his American or someone occupying my country I can't imagine that I would bring their occupying forces tea or like a Starbucks or something but that's what they did I mean that's so second nature so I mean how does that inform your understanding well it informs our understanding of Iraq but how did is it how did it or has that had an formation on why then you became a conscientious objector well one of the big reasons that kind of nothing happens overnight I don't and for me my CEO one of the deepest pains that I have for my whole process even though I did essentially say look I can't do this it took me a long time to get there the the first moment were that kind of someone kind of grabbed the snowball and chucked it right was when I was shearing a conic switch is what we lived in in Kirkuk at least in Iraq nobody that our platoon interpreter case needed to need a place to sleep and we had an uneven number of people in the platoon and the platoons aren't asked who once stay with the interpreter and nobody raised their hand and and I I'm just guessing but seem to so nobody there was it's great that we're friends but you know I don't trust you I've got my weapon that I leave on my bed and you know who knows what you could do with it and so I volunteered and for I mean we we would come and go on missions but that was our you know kind of home base for he and I through conversations we had at night I remember asking just about regular stuff here's an engineer he got his degree from Missoula University he was a carpenter for the Americans for a little while then he was an interpreter his family was had to move and had to tell everybody that it was dead because he would be a collaborator that was the first moment where I was like there's enemies on both sides of the gun and we'll get into it more later but in the second installment but when I go to the truth commission next month I'll be sitting on a panel with Joshua Castillo who's when I went to the National Cathedral on the fifth anniversary of the war I read something of his that he had written as part of like the introductory liturgy and he the first time I think was one of the first if not the first time he goes outside the wire he finds himself aiming and an eight-year-old boy and he looks through his scopes and he see this eight-year-old boy and immediately he's like there's something wrong with that I spent 14 months and I never got it it took me my entire deployment and eight or nine months afterwards to realize there's something wrong going on so I know that there are some pictures that your friend Jamie Moffat took of Rupa and the people there I was wondering if you had any words about what you see about these pictures you've seen them I know what would you say about them what do they teach us about your experience Jamie went as another kind of fly on the wall he's he actually got video footage and there is we're doing some fundraising hopefully it'll it'll pan out but we're trying to create a documentary alongside this book that's being written the gospel of rootbound and so for me it was it was kind of a struggle part of me didn't want him to go because I I think that having cameras present at such a deeply intimate emotional kind of period almost threatens to violate it in some way but I think he did a really good job a and staying out of the way but recording very real people it looks like is that where you're leaving to into Iraq or leaving Iraq we're coming into a rock as you can tell by the smile on my face kind of yeah we had so crossing the border is kind of a story in itself it took us forever to get our visas we had applied early through DC the EU the Iraqi ambassador to the u.s. to the UN both were working with us we had sent in our visas our applications two months ahead of time and nothing happened when we get to Jordan we went through the Jordanian embassy so no Americans involved in that process and their their speculation was like look somebody just doesn't want you to go and I kind of laughed off I don't know if I'm into the that kind of conspiratorial kind of but anyway regardless we finally got our get our visas after a meeting with our Jordanian ambassador or rocky ambassadors in Jordan and so we had that you know his signature on our visas and everything there's you know shouldn't be any Americans involved jurisdictionally because we're going from Jordan to Iraq you know the gallery there's nothing going on we get to the border and in no-man's land we're stopped by a patrol of two American Humvees and this captain who is was there said look you know the American Embassy is has demanded that they know everybody that goes in who is American and the other holy of the process which is totally understandable but I thought to myself you don't have any jurisdiction I mean certainly it's an occupied country but we're also kind of out of the other side of our mouths saying that they're their own sovereign nation and we're just here to you know provide stability and eventually we got through but something that that the American officer said the captain he and so I mentioned earlier we didn't want big fanfare because that kind of heightens our you know we don't want to be those Americans were coming in and saving the day or whatever and he preferred to provide Humvees all the way into roopa and and under under our breath everybody was kind of chuckling like he just doesn't get it like that's worse and so I know I thought that that was kind of funny I think the picture was actually taken before we got at that point but yeah it was it was real difficult getting in and out but we did it well what did it feel like for you like I mean you said you know you had a smile on your face when you went in thinking about maybe how hard it was to get in but what was it like for you to return to this place that it's I know it's emotionally charged it's politically charged and all that but just what was it like for you personally to go in well I suppose I might take up the entire at the time but so I've been involved in peacemaking ever since my Co stuff and I wouldn't have applied for steel and I would have asked to go back to Iraq without a weapon if I had not been ready with my very life to defend the idea that the the need the urgency for peace and the the call not to be forthright about my history totally understandable and I wasn't like I didn't have any I didn't have like a confession planned I didn't I didn't expect to say anything but just like how we're talking now this is a dynamic conversation you're saying stuff I'm saying stuff and and there isn't any there there no boundary set up in which I need to restrain myself and so that was really difficult for me for a good part of the trip I joined a lot of it and a lot of it is like I think I press through like two pages on my journal but the the most difficult part I think was realizing how real and deeply held the emotions are against the American government and their I mean we're all Americans we're all welcomed it's not about they don't have a problem with Americans but the military is one of those things that provides a direct representation of the government and so as a an activist as a peacemaker I carried that with me in a way that I wish I didn't have to but the same time Switchfoot has these great lyrics forgiveness may be forgiveness is right where you fail I've gotten into a lot of conversations with people about equity and justice and racism and speaking as a white Christian hetero able-bodied male that disqualifies me from in the minds of some people I don't know that I would agree that it should but it does and that's been really difficult I want very passionately to be a part a tangible part of the reconciliation in Iraq but even as I say that I recognize that that isn't my right that isn't even something that's a privilege that's something that I need to come to as an invitation and it even it is possibly even this the remnants of my own it's called white privilege that maybe says oh I have something that they need when I don't know maybe that's right there was a quote that came out of the original movement in Australia in the 70s that I get tattooed on my forehead if I could was that yeah that would probably print me from some jobs but they said if you've come to save us we don't want your salvation but if you've come because your liberation is tied up in ours then work with us and that really made me that I read that going in - after I gotten out I was living in Camden which at the time was the most violent city in the US and it reminded me a that it's not about salvation I'm not people aren't going to save one another they need to help us they need to help the human family kind of come out of of its own kind of funk I guess but it's also a two-way statement in that that liberation requires the oppressed the poor the hungry the starved to kind of take that first step also I think that the the the relative obligation is definitely much heavier on the oppressor on those who have had privilege but it's a it's definitely it's a dynamic interaction so will was sudden given this this dynamic that you're mentioning as important so then and so what was the reaction of the people in Rupa to the return of these people they had helped 6-7 years ago that that was definitely what they're most surprised about not that we thought so much of their you know normal everyday act of generosity but that we came back what was it nine years late seven seven years later why were they surprised that they would come back well I think they have an expectation of us just as we have of them and I mean not necessarily the whole white privilege thing but I mean who does that who travels for me I think it was the polar opposite sides of the globe but that I think that was an article of hope that was that represented so much potential and one thing as as much as I wish could have been done more I mean I imagine if if I had talked to one of the Iraqi policemen I think we saw in one of the pictures if I were to tell him hey I was here you know I trained Iraqi policemen the connection that could have occurred that that potential that capacity for for real you know gritty reconciliation though it didn't occur it's going to it is as we are speaking I think the trip to Roopa was the beginnings of that and so as as painful as it was for me to restrain myself and as difficult as it was as a white Christian hetero you know male someone shared with me the fact that I can both mourn and celebrate the incompleteness of the reconciliation that was begun and as as that reconciliation has worked out I'll find my I'll find my position my place but it's got to be organic and I can't go there you know with a big flag American flag saying look all right tensions over some from crossroads my own church said look you know on one level we can't hope to reconcile as we're hurting someone I mean you don't in the middle of a fight as you're punching someone say okay now let's stop it's you stop you take a breath and you're like that was stupid and so it's I mean it's it's difficult but you know if I'm here for the long haul I'd I still very passionate tennis testament ly know and feel that this is something that's worth dying for I mean this is you know love is the the hardest four-letter word to swallow I hope that maybe in another time maybe in the future making waves is still around and you've gone again then it may be OB that reconciliation that you're hoping that's also really good well I mean we're gonna wrap it up second it's gone really quickly I want to thank Logan for coming to talk about a very meaningful experience for him and and sharing that with us today the next show that we have hopefully it'll expand that the inability for you to have spoken out there in Iraq at that time but we'll talk in the next segment part two of faith and service of a conscious conscientious objector about how Logan wasn't then in March in the coming month be able to speak about that experience in Iraq on this trip and on his past deployments so thank you very much for joining us I'm making waves this is Darlene red tree signing off thank you Mahalo for joining us today thank you

• Part 2 Transcript

  Aloha this is darling red rigs your host for making waves a show of about peace and social justice in Hawaii this is the second installment on faith and service of a conscientious objector part two with Logan mail Latorre talking about conscientious objecting a war and we're going to start this segment about the truths Commission on conscience and war with a little trailer of the upcoming March Commission there will be times when nations will find the use of force not only necessary but morally justified

  what is your duty it's a soldier it's a human being you have to ask yourself and what situations would kill him be right

  we were in the area of Iraq that was supposed to be where the Garden of Eden you know where mankind began I had asked myself why am i carrying around an m16 in the garden

  when are there situations in which loyalty to a nation-state comes into conflict with loyalty to the kingdom of God I felt very strongly that Christians can't serve the country they first and foremost must serve the God that they worship there is a weight to what you're doing war in all situations is a grave atrocity but I only know that because I stepped foot in those countries overseas most of the American people haven't so that's why they should listen to us because we've been there [Music]

  Again that was the trailer for the truth commission on conscience and war which will happen in march 23rd in city I have with me Logan mail lottery who will be speaking at that truth commission and who will give us a little bit of context and background to that thank you for coming Logan again at the last part one we left off I think on a really interesting note in terms of you not being able to talk about your service in Iraq your previous service in Iraq while you were there in January so now here's an opportunity for you to speak out and just please give us a little bit of context and background for this truth commission why is it important and what you hope to accomplish by going there sure when I applied to be a CEO in June of oh six the whole process was self-taught I didn't know anybody else who did it I stumbled upon the regulation that contained the instructions and if I hadn't plugged into certain groups and been in certain circles it would have been an incredibly lonely experience and so all the different branches of the armed forces have stipulations for CEOs including the Coast Guard the DoD even has one at the Department of Defense level and but the problem is there is a lack of understanding of them but also the only only strict pacifism is recognized currently in our in the u.s. furthermore because it's not federal law the military regulations in the UCMJ can be rescinded at any time which is what happened in the first Gulf War so the conscience that the truth commission on conscience and war has a couple of aims the first one as a truth commission similar to the one at South Africa Peru Chile there's been a couple here is simply to give a space for often muted or silenced voices just to have their their day and so in that sense they're going before that's including myself and three other Peter three other people the trailer there's also going to be legal experts health specialists religious leaders focusing on this issue of conscience and warned how do we go about securing the freedom of conscience from a you know kind of legal structural frame framework but also as church people well and we'll also have Jewish Muslim perspectives as well from a religious standpoint how do we wrestle with a nation that only recognizes strict pacifism which is an extremely minority but every faith group every major faith group has just warped principles similar to what are commonly understood but the US doesn't actually formally recognize what would amount to selective conscientious objection or SCO and so we're just having this Commission to explore the possibilities the limitations in in enacting law like that sure so what do you think are the mean is the the overall goal to perhaps change the law the the regulations on and including SEO or select the long term goal yeah I think and we this work is not just beginning on the 21st it's actually begun in a Supreme Court and earlier with Gillette v US and 1967 66-67 oftentimes in Vietnam if somebody even registered as a CEO to the draft board they would be sent often voluntarily to combat as a medic and unarmed medic so part of my part of what my hopes are is that we revive that heritage we have three Congressional Medal of Honor winners were also CEOs in two and Vietnam and one in World War two who was Desmond Dawson I think he's still living the other two in Vietnam were both killed in action saving the lives of their platoon members without a weapon so I'm trying to my my hope is that we'll we'll kind of reground ourselves around that understanding of duty and service and patriotism but I do think that you can address the issue of conscience without exploring how to actually allow that exercise to to come to fruition in public square so actually could you explain a little bit about its to me it sounds like there are varying degrees or perhaps even a spectrum so you have pacifism on one hand and you have this could you explain the the Rama or what are the parameters for selective conscientious okay right now in ethical terms there's there is a scale from will say pacifism to just war to pre-emptive war or none of the above none of the above is like there are no rules in war all fair all this friend love and war that's kind of the far end of the spectrum even though we don't really associate it with it so right now the US government and the military regulation is the Uniform Code of Military Justice only recognizes that far into the spectrum pacifism which is objection to all war any form but there's two different ways you can go about quest discharge or you can request for reassignment duties and you're often not allowed to re-enlist if you're one of the second set of objectives the parameters so selective conscientious objection would ground in law or regulation the idea that each individual service member is able and empowered to dictate their their understanding of their ability to serve in a given context now there's a gut check reaction to that people immediately assume everybody's going to gather military that's not really the case even strict pacifism the burden of proof is on the applicant the average processing time is no less than nine months the highest rate of processing time I think is right now in the Marines but that that would still be in place somebody could not raise their hand one morning in formation and say you guys are going but I'm going to sit back here and play video games for fifteen months or twelve months so that's one thing that we need to make sure is kind of on the table this is not an easy process I thought it was for those that achieve it is one of the most difficult ways to get out I mean you could you could piss hot you could drink yourself stupid or you could spend nine months arguing with your superiors about whether or not you're a CEO so that's that's essentially what we're working with this is looking I don't even know if specifically is the right term but one of the major focuses as we talk about content and war is this huge shortcoming in our legal framework that doesn't allow the freedom of expression expression freedom of conscience even though our founding fathers were very clear like James Madison said the conscience is the number one you know link between man and God and to violate that is to violate no less than you know one's religion itself okay thank you for clarifying that whole spectrum because as you said right now we don't have selective conscientious objection and actually if we were to what do you think what would be the outcome of something like that I don't think that's gonna happen overnight and I'm tempted to go into my own personal beliefs but I think I spend too much time on there but I think it is possible that the legal parameters exist in Gillette ve us justice Douglas said in his dissent the only dissent it was an 8 to 1 decision which is you know steep hill decline but he said that essentially Gillette and this other guy new gray I think they were both very devout Catholics and at least as early as Vatican 2 in 1962 in gaudium it's best they talk about how everybody has a duty to obey their conscience that that is the that where man enters into the depths of his own being and as is present with God at that moment and so in his dissent he said look we can't he associated refusing s CEO on a legislative or judicial side as interfering with one's free exercise of religion so we have we have that kind of framework but I think we will need to acquire the political will and I think we also need to just like I mean right now da/dt Don't Ask Don't Tell is going over in the military there is no shortage of opposition to this very idea even though I think on its basic principles everybody accepts like yeah you can't you can't tell someone they don't have the ability to decide for themselves what is good or evil or right or wrong so I don't know I think it's it's it's a big plate to be served but I think it's a long kind of process I think the truth Commission is just of many you know steps in that direction I think okay so what do you think it's important to have this truth commission on conscience and war at this time well the most immediate need if we're speaking from an American perspective is this last year this last year more soldiers killed themselves than were killed in combat that is a crisis of conscience you don't kill yourself without believing your monster for some reason or another Jeffrey Lucy I think it might I might be getting the first name wrong but private Lucy as a marine came home and he was writing a sister about you know don't you understand I'm a monster and he was obviously somebody who objected morally somewhere internally to what he was asked to do but this this this conceptual bludgeon we use against our servicemembers of you signed a contract and that obligates you to morale I don't know that doesn't work Lucy's parents found him with the garden hose around his neck in their own basement I mean that is the the most immediate need that I see but also coming back from my trip to Iraq the other the secondary audience to this kind of truth Commission is any people or nation receiving end of military force overseas and so they have a stake in in reinforcing individual moral agency I mean the Nuremberg principle number four states the same thing and that's where we get this idea of you know legitimate perceived legitimate Authority telling you to do something does not free you up from the responsibility of doing it and so this paradigm of a good German is something we really need to make sure we're doing everything that remain outside of but that includes telling people that like when I was in basic you're not paid to think and then when we deploy when I deployed we were told you're your duty is to obey this will be lawful unlawful orders but how can you do that if you don't have the agency to think and so there's this duplicity that I think we have to overcome.

  okay so there's some the loss of agency to think I think creates perhaps a cognitive dissonance and service members that might cause a psychic rift absolutely right just to go back to that because I think that that's something very interesting about um I think first and foremost this Commission is from the people who are the mean perpetrator the perpetrators of this violence and I'm wondering if you could speak to that because there was something that you had bro written in one of your blogs about that about this um dividing grief that that in some way the ability for veterans to speak is very important in order to share this grief with everyone else about what's happening and yeah the blog I wrote recently on Farrell theology wordpress.com it was actually in response to this my trip to Iraq I had been speaking with a friend about this very issue and there's actually about I think affirmative action and I realized that we either accept the you know we accept discrimination for good purposes or bad or we don't and it just kind of got me thinking on the in terms of conscience in war mm-hmm I mean when you steal that from someone that that's a debilitating emotional spiritual psychiatric blow I mean the the moral injury is a term that was recently coined by a new report that's coming out that actually one of the writers is going to be at the truth comission and so I think that one of the the great possibilities with selective Co is that service members would be able to continue to you know remain a service to their country either through your remaining in the military or you know a national auto alternative service or something I think that that would prevent those kinds of psychiatric injuries I mean that's the number one concern that we have is PTSD and everything and if if pts PTSD is not in some way caused by constants I don't know what is or what that possibly could be causing it I mean I don't I can speculate but I probably shouldn't and in my blog I realized that you know when when they're this cognitive disconnect occurs that is when that is the first moment at which we stop seeing one another as as part of a human family we stop seeing each other's as brother or sister or kin and I'm like I'm kind of an idealist but I think that's that's really how it should be viewing one another is is if I can't do it to my brother or sister why why would I do it to you right so yeah well what was interesting about if you take a look at the the website on the truth comission one of its purposes also was to build bridges between them it says you know hopefully to build bridges between a military community and the peace community I'm wondering if you could comment on that because I I find that a very intriguing concept of if that's even possible bridging the military community and a peace community yeah the three goals of the Commission officially are to honor and safeguard the freedom conscience for service members pair explore and repair moral injury and spiritual injury and then of course also to build bridges between pacifists just war just peace we had different camps and I was kind of in a bind when I decided to be a CEO because I didn't necessarily kind of accept out of hand or you know right away this idea that you know the military is evil and you just have to get out of it I knew guys that joined for very altruistic reasons some of them before 9/11 like myself where after and even that I think is to jump to that kind of conclusion immediately does the same kind of damage as saying well you're in a rocky so I can in my weapon at you and so I do think that there in in certain circumstances there is a divide to be bridged between the peace community and and military members we I don't I think that it strips a person of their unique humanity to say well you're a person who's in the military and that's all you'll ever be only ever be as good as your the uniform that you wore and that just seems I know I can't accept that any more than I accepted what I was conditioned to believe and I didn't you know elect like Oh a Rockies are just they don't matter but ultimately that's what that's what I had to believe in order to go to combat right okay we're nearing almost the end of our time here so I wanted to ask you but what you hope to accomplish by going to New York at the Riverside Church and what you hope to bring back for me as part of my organization I'm Centurions guild is some co-founded in 2008 and we're a co-sponsor we're also going to be live blogging the event conscience in Ward org or Centurions guild or one of the two we haven't really figured it out but I really want just people to talk about it I've already been announcing the the event in class I've gotten some really colorful conversations but all of them very good and personally I just I love talking about this stuff I could talk for I think some more but really I think it's a discussion at the national level that that needs to take place and so what I hope to do is that people log in to watch our live blogging centurions gorg you know look at the trailer they've already seen it but there will be continual kind of updates and content as we have the event but also the the event itself is really the inauguration of a period of discernment and digestion and reflection nationally hopefully of these issues the event on the 21st will collect testimony from the testifiers the expert witnesses mental health specialists and the following day behind in a private session testifiers and commissioners will be discussing what you heard what we do with that and how do we move forward what are we willing to commit to and so once that is collected on the 22nd that'll open up a six month period where these questions are going to be asked where this morning I was on the color Christian organization so a progressive Christian organization talking about their participation Riverside Church donated in-kind several thousands of dollars just to use the space for free so this is this is big I think people on will get excited about that hopefully they'll you know find it through my blog through conscience in Ward orgs and turnings guild org I mean I have I have people on Twitter and Facebook I could go on and on but really the idea is to get people talking so that you know that cognitive dissonance can be repaired so that people begin to look at soldiers as more than just uniforms on the other side of the aisle I mean the right does it - and that that's where this argument well you've signed a contract and blah blah blah well the contract was the is the only enforceable contract an entire body of law that is only binding to one side like that doesn't make any sense so I think that's really the goal is through conversation through dialogue that we begin to see servicemembers as more I guess now it's gray but it used to be green and brown and black or blue and yeah really just humanizing the military for the benefit of the US and also I think by extension those who have suffered at the hands of of our very own military she didn't actually know I have about then whether or not Iraqis would be a part of this truth commission I've invited a couple of commissioners as a correspond sir we invite commissioners and they're certain obligations most of those that I've invited who are dual nationality or something or not gonna be in the country unfortunately but at least through my efforts I know that I'll be trying to make sure that this kind of testimony these stories get told even in Iraq or two Iraqis one thing that I'm trying to tackle that is still in development mode is collecting more stories that we can't fit into this four hour time period on the 21st so we're we're soliciting service members to contact me Logan scale that org and video audio or written testimony that will be submitted to the kind of broader archive that Union is even in Theological Seminary will be will be holding for us okay thank you so much for joining us this is Darlene Rodriguez signing off we'll probably do another segment with Logan when he returns in March after the truth comission Mahalo for joining us thank you.